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- Advanced Topic! Using No3 to reduce PO4
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| Advanced Topic! Using No3 to reduce PO4 | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 27 2008, 08:30:38 AM (832 Views) | |
| Post #1 Aug 27 2008, 08:30:38 AM | Suzy |
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Hi, Guys! I want to discuss an advanced topic with you advanced hobbyists. This is a technique I have used for years and I am wondering if any of you have heard about it, or are using it now. First, we all know that anaerobic (low oxygen) bacteria is able to convert nitrate (NO3) to free nitrogen gas that bubbles up and out of our tanks. DSB and live rock both have areas of low oxygen, so a well established tank is able to have very low nitrate levels, or even no NO3 at all. Also, we know that algae (micro and macro) consumes NO3. Algae also consumes Phosphate (PO4) and iron (FE). But, algae consumes much more NO3 than PO4. Different research papers I have read have different ratios, but it is around 14:1. Much, much more NO3 is consumed by algae than PO4. Plus, our bacteria reduces the NO3, so PO4 builds and becomes problematic. Excess PO4 causes cyanobacteria because cyano is able to bind free nitrogen, while the higher algae can't. Also, high PO4 levels can cause our corals to have differing colors. So, is it possible to manipulate the levels of NO3 to make it available for our algae to consume both the NO3 and the PO4? Without the NO3, algae is unable to consume the PO4. We think we can add more food to increase the NO3, but that doesn't work because we are also adding more PO4, and our food also has higher level of PO4. So, PO4 builds and we must resort to using expensive PO4 adsorbers. What if we add NO3 as an additive, without the PO4? Your thoughts? |
Seahorse Whisperer
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"i was informed of some dolphin related testing going on up there" Too Funny! | |
 
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| Post #2 Aug 27 2008, 10:43:31 AM | Amie |
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So what you are saying is that the macroalgae in my refugium or the Phyto that I add can't consume Phosphates if there are no Nitrates in the tank? Wow..this could be a huge discovery for me, if it's right. I need to go check my Nitrate levels on 2 of my tanks. 14:1 ... that's a huge gap. That would mean that you would need to add a ton of NO3 to start getting the P04 down. Wouldn't that be hard on the fish and coral? |
stormy, stormy nights
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http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sandiego/technology/mammals/interns.html Tell them Adam sent you. | |
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| Post #3 Aug 27 2008, 11:01:32 AM | Suzy |
| No, you don't add a ton, just enough to get some NO3. As the macro begins to consume the PO4, you add more. I try to keep my NO3 at 5 ppm, just a testable amount. It takes a while to get the additions just right but once you do, it's easy. |
Seahorse Whisperer
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"i was informed of some dolphin related testing going on up there" Too Funny! | |
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| Post #4 Aug 27 2008, 12:08:57 PM | Amie |
| What exactly do you add? And how much does it cost? |
stormy, stormy nights
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http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sandiego/technology/mammals/interns.html Tell them Adam sent you. | |
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| Post #5 Aug 27 2008, 04:29:01 PM | Suzy |
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There's the rub! I used to have reservations about adding what most people do: Potassium (K+)Nitrate. I was afraid of the K+ building up and causing issues. Potassium is lethal in high doses. It is what we use for lethal injections for mass murderers! So, I used to add Calcium Nitrate. But, I had my water professionally tested a few times and my K+ was actually very low. Turns out, algae uses K+. So, now I use KNO3 to boost my K+ level. But, I (along with many others) get it from Home Depot. It is..... Stump Remover! There are a few caveats: You must have a strong growing macroalgae for it to work in sufficient quantities. A lot of us have a Chaetomorpha spp in our refugiums. I think that is the slowest growing of all the alga genus! I use the Caulerpa genus. Grows like crazy if conditions are right, and actually is very safe if one knows what to watch for. But, there are many others... |
Seahorse Whisperer
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"i was informed of some dolphin related testing going on up there" Too Funny! | |
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| Post #6 Aug 27 2008, 04:29:42 PM | Suzy |
| Oh, stump remover costs around $7 bucks for a lifetime supply. How much is RhowPhos?! |
Seahorse Whisperer
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"i was informed of some dolphin related testing going on up there" Too Funny! | |
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| Post #7 Aug 27 2008, 07:23:51 PM | Matthew |
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Most of this is my opinion, based on anecdotal evidence, many of this should be informative, if you know places where I am totally wrong please point it out. =) I very much agree that you get to a point where your nitrate is not HIGH enough for phosphate limitation, and you cut into macro algae and coral growth. We have been trying to limit nitrate so much that now we have to little. I had been adding potassium in the form of potash, and nitrogen in the form of ammonium sulfate for about a year. Soley based on my experience in freshwater planted tanks. I think I need to find a better N replacement. Calcium nitrate looks to be the way to go since I would like to keep K and N separate though though freshwater plants can use ammonia more readily than nitrate salt water might be the same. Maybe I just need to add MgCl for magnesium then I wouldn't have to worry about excess sulfate. I have seen potassium levels discussed a lot in saltwater forums now that I have started looking for it. Not having a way to test K I have noticed my acros (not other sps) get upset when levels are too high, with a huge reduction in polyp extension. My understanding of plants is that any plant needs nitrogen, potassium, phosphorous, and carbon to grow. This is easily evident in freshwater plants, and we could guess the same with salt water plants (micro and macro algae included and also zoanthele???). This is something that has been talked about a lot in the planted freshwater community for many years, many people get their plants growing fast enough that they end up adding all of the terrestrial plant fertilizers, N K and P (gasp!) with CO2 as a water exclusive addition, with no algae growth. This was a good resource and could possibly be benificial with calerpa. http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm. Some freshwater plants can use CO2 from CO3, but many can't. The ones who can will grow well in a hard water tank with no CO2 supplementation. In a saltwater fish tank I would guess that plants can get CO2 from CO3, but there might be growth benefits for macro algae from CO2. Maybe an added benefit from a calcium reactor? Using a two part solution my alkalinity needs are much higher than my calcium needs, I would attribute that to macro using CO3 as CO2. In freshwater most algae can be outcompeted on phosphorous by plants as long as they have sufficient N and K (and to a lesser extent iron and trace elements). So just adding N and K will limit algae, and increase plant growth this is very true in freshwater planted tanks. I would again guess (and have played my tank with the assumption) that this is the same in saltwater. I think cyano (a bacteria) runs on something else. Thread algae just like in freshwater thrives on high iron levels, this is easily tested by adding a large dose of iron, and seeing the thread algae explode. |
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| Post #8 Aug 27 2008, 09:50:02 PM | Amie |
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Can't you get just Nitrogen fertilizer somewhere? Then you wouldn't have to be adding 2 or more things at once? Is this what you are talking about? http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/35/6/1052.pdf |
stormy, stormy nights
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http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sandiego/technology/mammals/interns.html Tell them Adam sent you. | |
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| Post #9 Aug 28 2008, 06:09:21 AM | Suzy |
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Most of this is my opinion, based on anecdotal evidence, many of this should be informative, if you know places where I am totally wrong please point it out. =) There's another rub! Almost all the information we have is based on our experience in the hobby. There is such little research in the hobby. Most of what we can find in research papers is dealing with sewage treatment plants! I very much agree that you get to a point where your nitrate is not HIGH enough for phosphate limitation, and you cut into macro algae and coral growth. We have been trying to limit nitrate so much that now we have to little. How many times have you heard of aquarists that have a algae "go sexual"? I have a display tank with macrolgae. I can see "hints' before it sporulates. Then, I test and very often, it is because there is no NO3 available. I think many people could use this theory to their advantage. I had been adding potassium in the form of potash, and nitrogen in the form of ammonium sulfate for about a year. Soley based on my experience in freshwater planted tanks. I think I need to find a better N replacement. Calcium nitrate looks to be the way to go since I would like to keep K and N separate though though freshwater plants can use ammonia more readily than nitrate salt water might be the same. Maybe I just need to add MgCl for magnesium then I wouldn't have to worry about excess sulfate. What is potash? I need it! I have some calcium nitrate you can have. I bought some from a FW site years ago, and I over bought 'cause I thought I would need a lot. It was cheap! I have never thought about excess sulfate. Isn't it one of the macro nutrients? Do you think regular weekly 10% water changes wuld keep it in check? I really don't add that much mag, though. I have seen potassium levels discussed a lot in saltwater forums now that I have started looking for it. Not having a way to test K I have noticed my acros (not other sps) get upset when levels are too high, with a huge reduction in polyp extension. There is a place you can send wter to to have it professionally tested. I love it! They send a box with a bottle, all addressed with postage. You just filled the bottle and send it back! I was really surprised with the results I got. They can test iodine, potassium, everything we can't. My understanding of plants is that any plant needs nitrogen, potassium, phosphorous, and carbon to grow. This is easily evident in freshwater plants, and we could guess the same with salt water plants (micro and macro algae included and also zoanthele???). I think there are subtle differences between vascular (with roots) pants and algae, nutrient consumption wise. I know my algae sucks up a lot of iron. This is something that has been talked about a lot in the planted freshwater community for many years, many people get their plants growing fast enough that they end up adding all of the terrestrial plant fertilizers, N K and P (gasp!) with CO2 as a water exclusive addition, with no algae growth. This was a good resource and could possibly be benificial with calerpa. http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm. Except, in our tanks, we have the problem of too much phosphate. I do not think the warning signs he has posted work for algae, esp those that can go sexual. I cannot count how many times I have looked at my tank one day, and then the next day a whole colony of something has sporulated. The warning signs are much more subtle, IMO Some freshwater plants can use CO2 from CO3, but many can't. The ones who can will grow well in a hard water tank with no CO2 supplementation. In a saltwater fish tank I would guess that plants can get CO2 from CO3, but there might be growth benefits for macro algae from CO2. Maybe an added benefit from a calcium reactor? Using a two part solution my alkalinity needs are much higher than my calcium needs, I would attribute that to macro using CO3 as CO2. I am not sure. I have read on my favorite marine planted forum a few people try to add co2, but don't really get a benefit. But, I really don't understand how it works? If our tanks have good water circulation, and the gases (O2 & CO2) are regulated by the atmosphere, there will always be some carbon molecules available. Why would having excess be beneficial? It seems like as the carbon molecules are used, they are instantly replaced. I never have understood that about FW tanks. In freshwater most algae can be outcompeted on phosphorous by plants as long as they have sufficient N and K (and to a lesser extent iron and trace elements). So just adding N and K will limit algae, and increase plant growth this is very true in freshwater planted tanks. I would again guess (and have played my tank with the assumption) that this is the same in saltwater. IME, it depends on the algae! Nuisance algae cannot compete with the higher forms, if the algae has it's needs met. I think cyano (a bacteria) runs on something else. Thread algae just like in freshwater thrives on high iron levels, this is easily tested by adding a large dose of iron, and seeing the thread algae explode. Cyano can bind the free nitrogen gas that is available in all tanks, whereas algae must have the nitrate molecule. Great discussion! |
Seahorse Whisperer
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"i was informed of some dolphin related testing going on up there" Too Funny! | |
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| Post #10 Aug 28 2008, 07:00:01 AM | Suzy |
Nitrate is one of those molecules that must be bound to something else. I have heard of KNO3 ( K/potassium + Nitrate), CaNO3 ( calcium and nitrate), but I am sure there are many others. Great find on the research article! Did you read it? How about a review? |
Seahorse Whisperer
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"i was informed of some dolphin related testing going on up there" Too Funny! | |
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