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| Old Tank Syndrome | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 12 2009, 07:40:09 PM (304 Views) | |
| Post #1 Nov 12 2009, 07:40:09 PM | Suzy |
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Hey, Guys! I totally trashed one of my display tanks tonight. All those hours doing this , I am thinking about a theory that I have been pondering. All the ideas I have reading lately about old tank syndrome have been dealing with detritus but I am leaning another way. Why? Mostly just my personal experience. After a few decades of this hobby, I have never had a tank crash or experienced " Old Tank Syndrome". One thing makes me think I might have a theory about this phenomonem. Any thoughts before I expand? |
Seahorse Whisperer
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"i was informed of some dolphin related testing going on up there" Too Funny! | |
 
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| Post #2 Nov 13 2009, 09:40:59 AM | Amie |
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I would love to hear your thoughts. Personally, I think it comes from a deep sand bed that doesn't get stirred up enough on a regular basis or doesn't get vaccuumed once in a while. Then, all of a sudden, something releases all of that junk into the tank. My other theory is not 'Old Tank Syndrome', but 'Lazy Owner Syndrome'. We get bored with our tank and stop paying attention to it. The chemicals get out of wack over a long period of time to the point that there is no way to recover. |
stormy, stormy nights
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http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sandiego/technology/mammals/interns.html Tell them Adam sent you. | |
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| Post #3 Nov 13 2009, 11:29:19 AM | Larry H |
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I am of the opinion that the larger the tank the harder it is for it to crash. I agree with Amie that when we get bored and lazy, things get out of whack pretty fast. I think a good skimmer, a good water flow and clean up crew helps with the junk and uneaten food to keep your tanks looking nice. I only say this because I can never get my tanks to look nice. I think I feed too much. And I don't test often enough. I am interested in what you have to say as well. |
breeding stock
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| Post #4 Nov 14 2009, 07:08:20 AM | Suzy |
Ok, let me expand here? I never leave my tanks alone! Good enough is never good enough, right? I set it up, then I'm satisfied for a few months. At that point, I have to make myself leave it alone because I just changed it up. Then, I get a wild hair to totally redo it! I take everything out, change some rock something, some new background, a new tunnel, cave, out cropping, arch, something....
This is where I am leaning: The sand bed. But, I do not think it is sudden at all. I think it is chronic, building over time until the tank succumbs. And, I think keeping the chemicals/electrolytes is extremely important but I think there is one thing even more important: Gases. Oxygen and carbon dioxide, to be more specific. I am now thinking vacuuming the sand bed is important, depending on the tank. Those that rely on an anaerobic layer for nitrate reduction would need to be cautious. But those of us who use use macroalgae for nitrate reduction would need to vacuum even more. I will expand this.
I think large tanks may be safer, but I just think it takes longer for them to experience "old tank syndrome". But, I am now going to call it "Bored owner syndrome"! Ok, guys, before I make this a super long post, I want to make sure you are still with me? I have found I skim over long posts and don't read them...but this is a strong theory so I want you to read it and tell me if you think I am on the right track.... |
Seahorse Whisperer
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"i was informed of some dolphin related testing going on up there" Too Funny! | |
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| Post #5 Nov 14 2009, 04:18:05 PM | Larry H |
| You still have my interest. |
breeding stock
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| Post #6 Nov 16 2009, 08:58:06 AM | Suzy |
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Thanks, Larry! I think this is a strong theory and one I have not seen from others. First, let me explain a few terms you might already know, but maybe some reading this don't? Acute This is something that happens once and then ends. "Honey, where do you want to take me for my 50th Birthday?" Chronic This happen continually, over and over. "So, how much did that cost?" Supersaturation: A term I still don't fully understand but it means the water in our tanks have an elevated level of a gas, or more than one. It can be any gas in our atmosphere, I believe, but the ones we are concerned with are Oxygen, CO2, and nitrogen. There are others that can build up in our tanks, I think. Biofilm This refers to the layer of living bacteria, slime and goo that covers everything in our underwater world. We all now how the nitrogen cycle works, where certain bacterias change fish waste to free nitrogen gas. Where these bacteria live is called the biofilm. |
Seahorse Whisperer
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"i was informed of some dolphin related testing going on up there" Too Funny! | |
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| Post #7 Nov 16 2009, 09:56:50 AM | Suzy |
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Suzys Theory of the Cause of Old Tank Syndrome! Remember you read it here first! Cause I think this is as good as my reducing PO4 with NO3 theory! Start with a new tank? We add dry sand, we add dry rock, we add clean new sterile water. Then we seed it with a few live rocks, let the bacteria begin to grow in the water column, on the rock surfaces, inside and out, and on the sand bed, in the sump, inside the plumbing, every surface that touches water. We then add a few fish, corals, and more bacteria grows to consume the available wastes. We add more over the next period of time, until eventually the tank is full of wondrous macro and micro lifeforms: Fish and corals, spaghetti and bristle worms, copepods and amphopods, tiny protozoans and wiggly isopods, and those tiny bacteria living in the biofilm. Ready for the theory yet? All these wonderful lifeforms are living together in a wonderful symbiotic relationship. The fish and corals excrete wastes for the worms and pods, and their waste feeds the bacteria. All are consuming O2 and respiring Co2. The Co2 can be consumed by the photosynthetic zooanthelia algae living in our corals or the macroalgae living in our sumps, and the algae returns the favor by breathing our O2 for the animals. But, when the lights go off, the plants reverse this process and consume O2 and release CO2. Here comes the theory Now, let's examine how those gases (O2, Co2) are kept in equilibrium with the atmosphere. I learned years ago that only the top half inch of water is able to exchange co2 and o2 with the atmosphere. If one area (the water or the air above it) has a higher concentration of a gas than the other, the gases will move to become equal. But only in that half inch of surface water. So, we add water motion to move the water from the lower area to the surface, where it can equalize with the atmosphere, thus decreasing the CO2 our animals have produced and bringing in more o2 for them to consume. So, the water should have an continuous supply as long as the water is moving well. Wait for it I think there are tiny places in our tanks where the water motion is extremely minimal. We all know about the anaerobic bacteria that exchanges nitrate to free nitrogen gas. There are many places in our sand bed; inside, outside and under our very porous rock; behind powerheads, tubing and other equipment. So, we know there are stagnant areas of water motion. But our tanks have reached the point of equilibrium! The bacteria can only grow to the point where there is food for it, it is kept in balance by the laws of supply and demand, right? Nature only lets a "herd" of bacteria grow to fit it's available food source. Ready for the theory? I don't think so. I think the bacteria in these dark stagnant spots continue to consume o2 and produce co2 all the time, because they don't know day and night. And, when the lights go out, the process of photosynthesis is reversed and the symbiotic algae in our tanks also consume o2 and produce co2. This produces a very low level of unequilibrium, a minimal change from day to night . A source of chronic stress on the entire system. I have heard this referred to as Chronic Supersaturation. Here it is! My theory? It is not the detritus causing Old Tank Syndrome, it is the bacteria that causes it! But, there is a caveat to this theory..... |
Seahorse Whisperer
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"i was informed of some dolphin related testing going on up there" Too Funny! | |
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| Post #8 Nov 17 2009, 02:22:44 AM | Amie |
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What the heck..you can't end it right there! What is it? So if you are saying that it's being caused by too much C02 in the water, then a good refugium with reverse daylight and strong water flow to those 'behind the rock areas' would solve the problem, right? btw: I love vacuuming the sand bed. It's really gratifying to get so much junk of out the tank. I vacuum the sand bed about every 4-6 months, depending on how bad it looks. |
stormy, stormy nights
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http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sandiego/technology/mammals/interns.html Tell them Adam sent you. | |
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| Post #9 Nov 17 2009, 08:05:36 AM | Suzy |
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Yes, a super strong refugium with enough algae could help, but I can't help but wonder if it is enough to completely prevent those minor daily changes. And, I am alluding to the stagnant areas where no water can reach: the inner part of the porous rock, the underneath parts, and most importantly, the deep sand bed. Those of us with pH monitors see the very minimal change in pH from day to night. We know pH is an indicator of acid right? And Co2 is an acid, so the tiny change in pH from day to night indicates that the Co2 is changing from day to night. But, we have been told that these tiny flucuations are not harmful, that our lifeforms will adapt and tolerate it. But, a chronic stress on their bodies cannot be without consequence, IMO. It is like a human having diabetes or lupus or some other chronic condition. Our fish have some defenses to deal with their environment: they have kidneys and livers to filter their blood, a respiratory system to blow off the excess CO2. But, our corals do not. These tiny polyps have to deal with whatever is in their immediate area. And, they are surrounded by a biofilm full of bacteria, consuming the O2 and releasing the Co2. Is it possible the coral polyps could be deprived of O2 and enveloped by excess CO2 during the wee hours of the night? My theory is more to do with the tank being so well established, it has too many consumers of 02, and too many producers of Co2. Because drumroll, there is too much bacteria! Bacteria consumes and produces gases just like any other lifeform. So, a tank that has been around for a few years with x number of fish still gets over crowded even though we have not added more fish, or corals, or anything. But, there is that caveat...... |
Seahorse Whisperer
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"i was informed of some dolphin related testing going on up there" Too Funny! | |
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| Post #10 Nov 19 2009, 10:30:07 AM | Amie |
| Dang it Suzy, you are driving me crazy. |
stormy, stormy nights
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http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sandiego/technology/mammals/interns.html Tell them Adam sent you. | |
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