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| Old Tank Syndrome | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 12 2009, 07:40:09 PM (427 Views) | |
| Post #11 Nov 19 2009, 10:40:40 AM | Amie |
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You said that when the lights go off, the plants reverse the process of pulling in CO2 and putting out O2, right. But what about the macroalgae in the refugium? I thought that was the beauty of the reverse daylight system. The macroalgae in the refugium is receiving light during the night, so it is producing O2 during the night, thus keeping the ph up....right? I have several mangroves in my refugium that I hope are doing the same thing. So what about the overflow that is creating O2 if we have a large waterfall effect? That helps, right? This kind of brings up another question for me that is definitely off the topic, but I've been thinking about lately. If you drink bottled water that's been sitting around for a while, or if you put water in the refrigerator because you like cold water, doesn't that mean that the ph will be low when you drink it? So you are drinking acidic water? |
stormy, stormy nights
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http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sandiego/technology/mammals/interns.html Tell them Adam sent you. | |
 
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| Post #12 Nov 19 2009, 12:26:45 PM | Clint |
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Suzy I think there are some problems with your theory bacteria grow at logarithmic rates and quickly hit an equilibrium with resources. I think the real issue is chronic nutrient stagnation I'll elaborate on my next day off. Amie ph of 7 is the amount of Hydrogen ion in triple distilled water at 25 C. Pure distilled water in the presence of air is acidic at a level commensurate with atmospheric CO2. Homes shut up tight in the winter should have lower ph than is summer although the degree of difference would not be great. It takes very little time for CO2 to reach equilibrium with water. That is why limewater must be kept sealed and/or used quickly. Otherwise you will have a pile of Calcium carbonate on the bottom of your container. |
breeding stock
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| Midvale (435) 213-6215 | |
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| Post #13 Nov 20 2009, 08:04:28 AM | Suzy |
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You said that when the lights go off, the plants reverse the process of pulling in CO2 and putting out O2, right. But what about the macroalgae in the refugium? I thought that was the beauty of the reverse daylight system. The macroalgae in the refugium is receiving light during the night, so it is producing O2 during the night, thus keeping the ph up....right? Yes, but I do not think there is enough activity in the refugium to cover all the life in the tank, and the life in the refugium. The change is very minimal from day to night, but I think it is a chronic stress. I have several mangroves in my refugium that I hope are doing the same thing. I am not sure vascular plants, those with roots, are adding o2 to the water. They could be adding o2 to the atmosphere. I do think they consume co2 through their roots, but respire o2 through their leaves. So what about the overflow that is creating O2 if we have a large waterfall effect? That helps, right? Very much, it adds o2 and releases co2 to become equal with the atmosphere. This kind of brings up another question for me that is definitely off the topic, but I've been thinking about lately. If you drink bottled water that's been sitting around for a while, or if you put water in the refrigerator because you like cold water, doesn't that mean that the ph will be low when you drink it? So you are drinking acidic water? Hopefully not, because hopefully there are no consumers of O2 and producers of CO2 in the water! If the water was clorinated to kill bacteria, it should be sterile, and nothing is growing and respiring. Plus, the cold would keep stuff from growing.....hopefully! I wouldn't think the water in my fridge could be growing life, but I sometimes think the bologna might be! |
Seahorse Whisperer
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"i was informed of some dolphin related testing going on up there" Too Funny! | |
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| Post #14 Nov 20 2009, 08:29:45 AM | Suzy |
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Suzy I think there are some problems with your theory bacteria grow at logarithmic rates and quickly hit an equilibrium with resources. I think the real issue is chronic nutrient stagnation I'll elaborate on my next day off. Yes, bacteria will only grow as there is food available for them. But, we add food everyday, and some of us add food every 4 hours! That food gets processed through our fish, then through our hermits crabs, and bristle worms and pods. But, does that food/calorie energy ever leave the tank? It becomes detritus, which gets it's own biofilm, so detritus becomes a consumer/producer! Chronic nutrient stagnation? Could we be thinking along the same lines? Amie ph of 7 is the amount of Hydrogen ion in triple distilled water at 25 C. Pure distilled water in the presence of air is acidic at a level commensurate with atmospheric CO2. Homes shut up tight in the winter should have lower ph than in summer although the degree of difference would not be great. It takes very little time for CO2 to reach equilibrium with water. That is why limewater must be kept sealed and/or used quickly. Otherwise you will have a pile of Calcium carbonate on the bottom of your container. Yes! Another slight, subtle, minimal difference! This change in our homes atmosphere affects our little glass boxes. Even with strong water motion, the tank can only compensate to it's atmosphere.... So, here is the caveat to my theory: It is the bacteria consuming and producing gases in our tank that causes old tank syndrome but it is the bacteria covering the detritis! So, if we can get rid of the detritus, we decrease the lifeforms that are consuming the vital life sustaining oxygen our valuable fish and corals require to stay healthy. Amie's vacuuming or my constant changing the substrate accomplishes the task of removing detritus which removes excess life forms... Want to know why I am thinking it is a chronic elevated Co2 level and a chronic o2 depletion issue? My seahorses are very susceptible to gas exchange issues, and show increased respiratory rates to compensate for unhealthy levels, while my other fish really don't. Of course, if it is really bad, other fish do! And, my seahorses started getting a disease that might be caused by chronic stress. And the cure for this disease? A pill humans use for acidosis, too much co2 in the blood! |
Seahorse Whisperer
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"i was informed of some dolphin related testing going on up there" Too Funny! | |
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| Post #15 Nov 21 2009, 08:55:19 AM | Clint |
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OK I think in principle and management we are in agreement. The root of the problem is a chronic build up of nutrients in the form or microscopic biomass due to the long term build of a life; but I think the mechanism of action or the trigger may be different than what you are thinking on a few subtle points. If I understand you are thinking that the areas with decreased water flow harbor bacteria that do not know night from day. These populations release CO2 and burn O2 without regard to circadian patterns of the photosynthetic organism in the tank be they bacteria, phytoplankton, or macroalgae. Thus there are swings in gas concentrations over the course of the day that produce a state of chronic stress. What is the trigger? I,f I am understanding your theory, it goes something like this: As the biofilm mass increases, the circadian fluctuations become more pronounced until the tank can't tolerate it anymore and boom it crashes. Is this your theory? Edited by Clint, Nov 21 2009, 08:57:32 AM.
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| Midvale (435) 213-6215 | |
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| Post #16 Nov 21 2009, 09:46:20 AM | Suzy |
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Yes! It is a chronic longer term stress that decreases the health and stamina, weakens the immune systems, and cause life forms to just not flourish. And then, something does die. That is when the boom comes! The organisms have been weakened and they just can't fight it anymore......So, yes it is a crash, but a crash that took months (years?) to happen. But, I think I stressed the anaerobic bacteria too much. That point I was trying to express was just that there is so much life in our tanks, consuming and producing gases, and life that we never think about. The anerobic bacteria are consuming 24/7, along with all the other bacteria, animals, worms, ect. During the night, there is a dip in availability of o2 and an increase, however slightly, of Co2. I am going to make a new term, along the lines of "supersaturation". "Chronic supersaturation" has already been coined. I want a word that means "just a bit more" saturation..... |
Seahorse Whisperer
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"i was informed of some dolphin related testing going on up there" Too Funny! | |
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| Post #17 Nov 21 2009, 01:57:45 PM | Clint |
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I have never actually seen this syndrome so I can only theorize but I think this thing is all about a stagnant sand bed. The rocks could do the same thing if they really plugged, but it is so much more parsimonious as a sand bed issue. I really don't think the daily variations of gases is a major player in Old Tank Syndrome. The variations could put the system in some chronic stress but those stresses would be manifest on a continuum. Weaker organisms would succumb while others continue. My understanding of Old Tank Syndrome is that is is dramatic and fast: In other words when it crashes the acute problems are so great that even hardy organisms die. By definition Old Tank Syndrome is the result of chronic processes. Global gas imbalance is not real promising as a major player if you consider that there are people who have invested fortunes in equipment that will keep the gases stable, but they are still susceptible to a bad crash. Now at micro level, the gas theory seems strong. In an old sand bed the biomass of bacteria and other micro-fauna can really build up, and there are limits to how much gas exchange can occur in and out of the sand bed. Once the gas exchange reserve is met; meaning that all possible O2 into the bed is being used, then the tinder box is set. Something in the sand bed dies; a cerith snail, a burrowing worm, something anything. It starts to decompose sucking 02 from all around. All of the aerobic stuff in the region dies and the whole region become anaerobic. This wild fire spreads through the whole sand bed and suddenly the whole sand bed is rotting: H2S is released in quantity and presto, dead tank. This is essentially what happens with over fertilized freshwater bodies of water. Even the dead zone at the mouth of the Mississippi. I contend that even strong organisms free of long term stress would die in a true Old Tank Syndrome crash. I think we are essentially in agreement but I don't think the daily variation is a major player in the crash. I completely vacuum my bed occasionally, but I don't do the entire think at once. I have a plenium and I think it has been really good, so I don't want to completely disturb the bed all at once. But my completely disturbing the sand bed via deep vacuuming, in a peace-mill fashion, I keep total nutrient loads down and yet I always have the majority of my sand bed as a mature established denitrification layer. Edited by Clint, Nov 21 2009, 02:02:22 PM.
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| Midvale (435) 213-6215 | |
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| Post #18 Nov 21 2009, 03:42:26 PM | Suzy |
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We are on the same page mostly. It is the sand bed which causes the issue, more specifically the detritus in the sand bed? I take out all the sand and redo a tank quite freq, but each tank is only a portion of the entire system. Tonight, I am taking down my fowlr and making it completely different! I am too pumped! |
Seahorse Whisperer
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"i was informed of some dolphin related testing going on up there" Too Funny! | |
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| Post #19 Nov 21 2009, 07:03:38 PM | Clint |
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Yes detritus but of course over time the detritus is broken down and feeding bacteria and other microorganisms. |
breeding stock
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| Midvale (435) 213-6215 | |
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| Post #20 Nov 21 2009, 07:06:16 PM | Clint |
| I think partial tear downs and redos are the key to preventing the problem. By not redoing the entire system at once you still have the advantages of established beds. But nutrients can't get too built up. |
breeding stock
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| Midvale (435) 213-6215 | |
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