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| Old Tank Syndrome | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 12 2009, 07:40:09 PM (428 Views) | |
| Post #21 Nov 23 2009, 05:17:03 PM | Amie |
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Great information you two. I've always suspected it was the deep sand bed, but never gave it much more thought. I've had a few tanks that I've noticed all of a sudden didn't have any more 'bug' in them. These tanks had 3-4 inch sand beds and I had been relaxed in vacuuming them. Now I pay more attention to the sand beds than I used to. I vacuum about 1/2 of the sand beds in each of my tanks every 3-4 months. I know I'm losing some good bugs, but they recover quickly. Another thing...when I help someone move a tank, I insist that we vacuum the sand bed before moving the tank. I haven't lost a fish yet with this method. I just moved a tank last week for someone and everything survived. I think releasing all of those gases from the sand bed is a major cause of people losing their fish during a move. What do you think? |
stormy, stormy nights
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http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sandiego/technology/mammals/interns.html Tell them Adam sent you. | |
 
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| Post #22 Nov 24 2009, 07:39:39 AM | Suzy |
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I am sure it contributes big time. Vacuuming it before the move would really help neutralize any gas, I would think. There would still be anaerobic bacteria that could help, so a good vacuuming seems like a great idea. Plus, getting some of the detritus out would really make setting up in a new spot quicker. The sand bed would not be so over whelmed to start with. I would think vacuuming the day before, then on move day use a large strainer to move the sand to the new tank, letting some more detritus leave. The anaerobic bacteria would suffer, but the aerobic should be ok. I think both would recover quickly and be better off with less detritus. |
Seahorse Whisperer
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"i was informed of some dolphin related testing going on up there" Too Funny! | |
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| Post #23 Nov 24 2009, 06:10:19 PM | Clint |
| I have always taken the chance to clean the sand bed with a move. The bed can be pretty stinky under rocks and the net efflux of gunk is nice. It has been my experience that the sand bed bacteria recover quickly. It is such a stress on everything toxins from some otherwise stable anaerobic pockets is the last thing the critters need. |
breeding stock
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| Midvale (435) 213-6215 | |
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| Post #24 Nov 24 2009, 07:07:39 PM | BobC |
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Hi - I have not been on this forum for a while I read this thread and it sounds like an interesting theory I have a question that maybe will help narrow things down - or maybe not... Since I have been running plenums I have never experienced Old Tank Syndrome and / or HS2 -related crashes. My question is - looking specifically at Suzy's theory - why not? I mean, what is different about the plenumed sandbed (relative to bacterial biomass growth and potential CO2 / pH swings) vs. a conventional DSB? P.S. - I like the new "look" of the site. You guys did a great job! :D |
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| Post #25 Nov 25 2009, 08:04:27 AM | Suzy |
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Thanks, Bob! That is very kind of you and I must say, I have missed you! I love these deep advanced topics, not that I don't love any topic related to fish! But talking advanced theory is sweet with others who understand the concepts. I think a plenum might be less prone, if only minimally, to a chronic gas over saturation ( how about that term?!) just because there would be less bacteria. My understanding of a plenum involves a dead space under a live sand bed where anaerobic bacteria live in the water column. So, there is less surface area than in a deep sand bed, right? A DSB has each grain covered in a sweet biofilm of consumers and producers, where as a plenum bed with a shallower sand bed would have less surface area for bacteria. So, in theory, there would be less metabolism and respiration in a plenum bed. On the other fin, plenums work on the basis of us not disturbing the bed. So, it would still reach a maximum occupancy and then become overloaded...I think. I wonder if you could still remove some of the bacteria that is covering detritus by vacuuming a part of the sand without disturbing the layer underneath? Or would it really matter if the aerobic bacteria was disturbed for a slight moment? It would come back in mere minutes? hours? Hmm, I will need to think about this more! |
Seahorse Whisperer
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"i was informed of some dolphin related testing going on up there" Too Funny! | |
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| Post #26 Nov 26 2009, 05:43:19 AM | Suzy |
| Well, on thinking about this while tearing down a tank, I realized I have a big flaw in my theory. As our tanks mature, they grow copious amounts of sponge, which consumes bacteria..... |
Seahorse Whisperer
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"i was informed of some dolphin related testing going on up there" Too Funny! | |
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| Post #27 Nov 28 2009, 08:06:00 PM | Clint |
| I think the reason the pleniums are more resilient is there ability to reduce anaerobic pockets. If they are set up properly they are not completely anaerobic, the denitrification bacteria need low oxygen not no oxygen. So it is sweet you have all of the surface area at at top of the sand bed like a conventional sand bed and you also have a back door way of getting oxygen to areas of the tank that are not in good contact with the water movement. Areas under rocks would be good example. There is no less habitat for bacteria in a plenium system because you still have as much surface area in the sand bed above the water layer. |
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| Midvale (435) 213-6215 | |
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| Post #28 Dec 3 2009, 06:47:04 PM | BobC |
Your comment got me thinking. I may have come across the reason for my own personal lack of OTS using my plenums (which may not apply to everyone using plenums): When I set up the plenumed sandbed I always do what I call a "bilayer" setup. I cover the plenum with maybe 2" of sand, then put a layer of window screening down, then another layer of sand. The reaason I do this is so that the lower layer of sand can't be disturbed... not by a burrowing fish or invert, and not by me. This way, I don't have to worry about the plenum itself becoming exposed. I do vacuum my sandbed, occasionally. Maybe once every 4 - 6 months. Usually I will do about 1/2 of the tank, wait a day or 2, then finish. So maybe over the course of 3 days I will get the entire sandebed done. And of course, a bit of detritus and assorted crud gets vacuumed out. But the "bilayer" approach allows the lower layer to continue undisturbed. Since bacteria divide exponentially (over time) to meet the level of the available food source, I would imagine that the disturbed area gets repopulated in a day or so. I do recall that when I upgraded from a 125 to the 225 I had a guy who wanted the live sand out of the 125. We started scooping that top layer into 5 gal buckets, and (of course) it was quite "dirty" as the tank had been set up for almost 2 years. By contrast, once I reached the bilayer screening, the sand under that screening was remarkably clean looking, and "fresh" smelling...all the way to the plenum plate itself. Even after 2 years running. Hmmmm... ^o) |
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| Post #29 Dec 3 2009, 07:56:38 PM | Clint |
| That is interesting. I think my sand bed is less prone to anaerobic stinky with my plenium but I have never considered the bilayer aspect. |
breeding stock
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| Midvale (435) 213-6215 | |
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| Post #30 Dec 4 2009, 07:15:00 AM | Suzy |
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Underneath the screen was clean sand? Cool! So, if you can still vacuum the bed periodically, you are removing all that ol' fish poop and the bacterial bed below is still clean, seems like you have the best of both worlds! |
Seahorse Whisperer
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"i was informed of some dolphin related testing going on up there" Too Funny! | |
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